OLD RED LION THEATRE 
Family run business open since  1979


London Pub Theatre of the Year 2022 runner-up 

INTERVIEW WITH ARTISTIC DIRECTOR JACK ROBERSON BELOW


PROFILE

OLD RED LION THEATRE
 418 St John Street
 London
 EC1V 4NJ
Box Office: 0333 012 4963

IN A NUTSHELL
The Old Red Lion Theatre first opened its doors in 1979 and is one of London's oldest and most loved Fringe theatre venues. This 60-seat theatre has seen many artists passing through its doors and go on to work in the West End, regional theatre and internationally. ORLT has transferred work off-Broadway and frequently to the West End. See it here first in this intimate setting!  

LOCATION
Situated in Islington, the bohemian hub of theatre and arts life in London, the nearest tube station is Angel, on the Northern Line (Bank Branch)
Bus: Stop M is on St John Street, the same side of the road as us.
Here you can get on or off bus number 19, 38, 153, 341, N19,
N38 and N41:

PRODUCTIONS
Anything goes in this quirky space from rediscovered classics to contemporary satire, horror to comedy. ORLT particularly like to present plays that connect us to individuals and worlds that we’ve not encountered before.   
As well as their main programme, they also have Sunday and Monday night rehearsed readings along with festival including the October GRIMFEST.

THE PUB
ORL is a proper British boozer – the people’s pub! Expect fast food and pint deals, amazing happy hour (4-7pm), bands (or solo artists), dogs, free wifi and sports on massive screens with state of the art sound system. Its often-empty midday and rammed after work and most evenings. Some nights there’s standing room only whilst the theatre crowd are forming a snake at the box office hoping for returns, the sports fans are cheering noisily. The small courtyard is full of smoke and the women are laughing about the woeful toilet facilities.  

VALUE ADDED
Accessibility
Despite stairs up to the theatre which prevent easy access for those with mobility difficulties,  the theatre expects to bring back access for: Visual, audio and relaxed performances
Extra Live! Performances –  relaxed performances (perfect for those who cannot keep still, or quiet, or those who prefer to chill). 

DID YOU KNOW …
Charlie Hanson was the first Artistic Director (1979–1981)
Helen Devine, Artistic Director between 2004-2010 led the ORL to win the Empty Space Peter Brook Award and Dan Crawford Pub Theatre Award! Other Artistic Directors have included Clive Judd, Katy Danbury, Alexander Knott and the newly appointed Jack Robertson (2023)

The Old Red Lion had a three month residency (previously unheard of in a pub theatre) of 
TOMORROW MAY BE MY LAST: THE JANIS JOPLIN STORY  by Collette Cooper in 2023

Over the years the Old Red Lion Theatre has transferred work off-Broadway and four times to the West End. Notable hits beyond the Fringe include: The World Premiere of Arthur Miller's first play NO VILLAIN (Trafalgar Studios); THE PLAY THAT GOES WRONG (Trafalgar Studios and No 1 Tour); MERCURY FUR (Trafalgar Studios); KISSING SID JAMES (London and off-Broadway); THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING EARNEST (Old Red Lion Theatre and Theatre Royal Haymarket)

Kathy Burke, Stephen Daldry, Penelope Skinner and Nina Raine- are just a few who had early work presented on our stage and this list grows each year.

Old Red Lion is one of the oldest pubs in London. The original tavern called the “Redde Lyon” stood on this spot in 1415. At this time, it was surrounded by countryside and fields.

In the 18th Century Hogarth featured the pub in his painting ‘Evening’ which depicts its rural location, a pond, a smattering of houses, with women, children and a dog in the foreground going about their daily lives (including milking a cow). The painting shows the garden of the pub where we see people around a table and through a window discern those inside the pub.    

Last updated June 2023

INTERVIEW

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NEWLY APPOINTED ARTISTIC DIRECTOR, JACK ROBERTSON


July 2023


Robertson knew that Old Red Lion was well known for being a “good new writing theatre”. Whilst he himself comes from a sketch comedy background and can be seen on BBC Three Laugh Lessons, he also has an infatuation with horror. He himself performed at the London Horror Festival at the venue in 2018 with a camp classic horror parody he co-wrote entitled ‘Mistress to the Midnight’. Since producer Katy Danbury discontinued the Horror Festival last year, Robertson has taken up the mantle with the all new Grimfest, welcoming “anything in the vein of dark or unsettling theatre”. For example, the inaugural 2022 festival saw a run of ‘Vermin’ by Triptych Theatre, a play very much in the mould of Philip Ridley; grim, dark and unsavoury and it later transferred to the Arcola theatre. 


“The Old Red Lion is a genuinely haunted pub” reflects Robertson. He intends to “lean in more towards those genuinely scary aspects of the pub” throughout the year and not just reserve them for the Halloween season. “I would like the ORL to be thought of as the home of horror theatre.” 


The family run Old Red Lion Theatre has appointed their first Artistic Director since lockdown. Jack Robertson took the role in May 2023, having previously brought his horror pantomime “It’s Behind You!” to the pub theatre in 2021 followed by curating a work in progress festival, FRESH FEST. This festival was designed to help those artists who lost stage time when the VAULTS festival got cancelled in 2022. Clearly, he impressed the family with his ‘can do’ attitude towards theatre.


During the lockdown, family member Helen Devine took the role of Artistic Director herself and kept the theatre open as much as was humanly possible. This dedication and the family’s commitment to putting on superb theatre since 1979, won the theatre the accolade of runner up to LONDON PUB THEATRE OF THE YEAR 2022. Many of todays most celebrated actors started in this room above a pub full of Norwich City supporters enjoying big screen football. So, what has Robertson got in mind for the future of Old Red Lion Theatre?

RESIDENCY



Robertson’s attitude to theatre is “do it yourself” and he wants to make it easier for writers who wonder how to get into theatre, to produce their own plays. Recently TOMORROW MAY BE MY LAST: THE JANIS JOPLIN STORY returned for a second run Red Lion Theatre for a three-month residency. Never heard of before in a pub theatre, it was produced by the performer, Collette Cooper, and her manager. It was a tremendous success, with a near sold out run. Robertson looks forward to being able to welcome longer runs back to the theatre of “both classics and new writing” but at the moment, “things are still in a state of flux”. The current summer season is made up of short runs, mainly Edinburgh Fringe previews and pieces of new writing.


Robertson is making it easier for theatre professionals to book Old Red Lion Theatre, offering 2 or 3 night runs with box office splits, and free rehearsal space for incoming shows/artists. He’s encouraging people to know that “they have got a space they can come to” and is keen to build relationships. “Something put me off early on in my career as a writer” explains Robertson candidly. He asks: “What do I do? Where do I send scripts? Who do I get to watch my plays? It took me about 8 years just to decide to put my own play on.” Last summer, Robertson also brought his second full-length play ‘Demetrius Wakes’ (a cynical satirical sequel to Shakespeare’s ‘A Midsummer Night’s Dream’ to the Old Red Lion for a two-week run in August. Robertson recalls, “it was definitely a fun experience and something I had been longing to write for years so I’m glad I finally got it on stage!”


He’s keen to wipe away the barriers for emerging theatre professionals.  “Come to us” he says, “and we’ll see what we can do … Damien (Executive Director/pub landlord) and Helen are very welcoming”.


ROBERTSON’S BACKGROUND

Robertson himself did a master’s degree in playwriting but he got sidetracked by sketch comedy because “it’s a lot more accessible than theatre.” He was very interested in acting as a kid, but he didn’t go to drama school. He “couldn’t stop acting” during his first degree and many of his friends “are actors who went to drama school and they’re all doing very well in the industry”. However, Robertson’s own stance is to be independent, and not “beholden to casting directors and direction in general.”

“I don’t’ necessarily think I’m a playwright” he admits, “more of a hybrid, but I don’t think I would have written anything or tried to pursue writing if I hadn’t done the playwriting course”. Even so, he learnt most on the extracurricular side, “directing, producing, acting … Shakespeare to Churchill to improv comedy”. In 2015 Robertson ended up becoming part of a sketch double act. “It involved us in writing and performing and producing our own stuff at fringe festivals” says Robertson. His double act won the London Sketch Fest ‘Best New Act’ in 2016, previously won by groups like The Pin and Daphne.

He set up his own company, Medium Rare Productions in 2019, when producing his first theatrical piece ‘Butterfly Powder: A Very Modern Play’. The company went on to win ‘Best Comedy Play’ at the Greater Manchester Fringe Festival later that year. Robertson is originally from the Manchester area and loves to take his creative work “home” to the northwest.  

“I’m still trying to do acting jobs” he says, “but I don’t write sketch comedy anymore. I am finally turning my attention back to my original love – theatre. Though I do tend to keep writing funny plays – the real world is bleak enough at the moment!”


AUDIENCES

“Coming to Old Red Lion is a chance to see the future of theatre … a lot of theatre begins here” says Robertson. “You don’t get to make up your mind in the West End” he explains, “you’re told everything before you go and see it and how good it’s going to be, whereas in a little theatre, you can witness something brand new, you could get to see an amazing thing you wouldn’t see elsewhere”.


Introducing the family

Executive Director Damien Devine has been the Landlord for 21 years. Róisín Devine and Helen Devine are Associate Director/Consulting Producer.   Damien's niece Helen Devine was Artistic Director between 2004-2010. Helen led the ORL to win the Empty Space Peter Brook Award and Dan Crawford Pub Theatre Award.



Image: (L-R) Damien & Helen along with Demien's daughters Roisin & Mary



Q: Old Red Lion is a family business, with a proven commitment to theatre and also to sports. How do these two passions complement each other?


"Yes, we are family-run, and that is central to everything we do here. We want the venue to embrace everything we love as a family and we love the way that sports and theatres collide in our venue. We think that’s what makes us a true Theatre Pub as both are central to what we offer.  And really, there’s very little difference between watching live sport and live theatre in the sense that it brings people together. We love that on any evening Islington locals, football fans and theatre audiences can all be found together at our bar – there’s very few places where you’d find that mix in one place!"



Damien Devine

ARCHIVE INTERVIEW WITH ARTISTIC DIRECTOR ALEXANDER KNOTT 

February 2020 


Towards the end of last year, it was announced that Alexander Knott would be taking over from London Pub Theatre Award Winner Katy Danbury in 2020. We find out more about his tenureship and what it holds in store for the future of the Islington venue. 


What does the Old Red Lion Theatre mean to you?
The first shows I saw here were The Moor and Plastic, and I was blown away by both of them. Both intense, psychological thrillers with an angle of social exploration. After that I became familiar with the stellar history of the ORL, its platform being used to launch leading lights of our theatrical culture time and again. After bringing Bag of Beard’s Renaissance Men here in 2018, my relationship with the place was cemented. This is a theatre for experimentation and a proving ground for the future; a palpable mandate and a stellar history rolled into one.

Sum up your new direction for the theatre in three words?
Thoughtful. Experimental. Dynamic.
Or,
Dynamic. Flexible. Programming.

What’s the major thing that you want to change through theatre?
There are so many things – the price point to entry for companies and artists is a big one. But the one I have the most immediate control over, and the one I’m very up front about, is that I have zero interest in making people jump through hoops. As a company, tell me what you want, when you want it, and if the idea and the gesture behind it is good, and has a home at the ORL, I’ll do everything I can to find you a slot. That’s what the shorter run programming in curated festivals has been about, opening us up to more emerging artists, and giving them a voice on our stage. While I’m constantly spinning one too many plates, when we sit down for a meeting, I’ll be totally open to hearing any ideas.

Which theatre company, show or venue has had a major impact on you?
The Drowned Man by Punchdrunk turned my world on its axis. Not just an exceptional, poetic piece of theatre, but one whose world you could inhabit, walk through, talk to. A level of immediacy I had never come across with a proscenium arch. And it had a banging jig at the end of it. I think we’ve taken that level of intense, immediate audience connection, and a playful spirit, and tried to infuse the work of both Bag of Beard and BoxLess with it. 

Who or what drove you to get into theatre?
I started in community pantomime when I was 7 or 8. Apparently before that I was fairly shy. Beyond that, I had a couple of English teachers (one of whom is a playwright we’ve since worked with on A Christmas Tale with Jack Maple Productions), both of them introduced me not just to plays, but poetry and performance in a way that was formative. Making Yeats something far better than just having to be sat through, and then chucking Raymond Carver in there as a chaser. I guess if you combine the playful spirit of pantomime and those influences, you might start to see the style of theatre that interests me.

Has it been an easy passage?
Making theatre isn’t easy, but it isn’t the insurmountable task it first seems. And making your own work is the only way to take control over your own artistry and not having to wait for the phone to ring. If you’re in a position where you have job offers flying in, great, lovely, you’ve won the lottery. But to the overwhelming number of other artists out there – start making the theatre you would want to see. Do it collaboratively. Make a show.
I’ve been immensely lucky to have been surrounded with like-minded artists, and so we’ve gone on the journey and made the hard decisions together. And that’s what’s vital – finding the collaborators that get you excited about making it in your flat, about working with a shoestring budget, and still creating something you believe in, are proud of, and that expresses what you wanted it to express.

What will keep you on your toes most of all?
There really is never a dull moment so I seem to feel constantly on my toes! Certainly during the intensive rehearsal period recently, it's been a constant dance between my laptop, rehearsals and liaising with the current companies, and the upcoming ones. Katy Danbury said to me that the days go fast here as there will always be something to deal with. She wasn’t wrong. The day to day life of the ORL is non-stop.

What’s the single most important part of your work?
Giving a platform to voices that are not my own. There’s so much of a risk that theatre-makers can constantly hear their own thoughts and opinions echoed back to them. The Where Are We Now Emerging Artist Festival was all about that, trying to showcase new voices, and taking stock of where we are as a society. I’m hoping to do more festival-style programming.

Who or what can’t you live without in your daily work?
Coffee for one; at the ORL I’m never without a black coffee. And my collaborators – I couldn’t do anything without Zoe Grain, nothing would happen in my creative life without her. And James Demaine, Ryan Hutton and Samuel Heron are a crucible of ideas that is constantly exciting me. One thing we never feel short of are ideas. 

Who would be your dream theatre team to work with (dead or alive)?
A new play by Harold Pinter & Annie Baker
With dramaturgy by David Spencer (writer of Buried)
Directed by Jamie Lloyd and Emma Rice.
I don’t know where I fit in in this dream.

Are you planning to stay for a long term at Old Red Lion Theatre?
For as long as I can give a platform to the new and most exciting voices in ways that encourage experimentation, I will do. There's always more work to be done, and I'm a big believer in "playing the hand you're dealt" in this industry; that's how you take risks and opportunities - but I'm certainly hoping to get my feet under the table at the ORL.

What do you hope to have achieved in one year’s time?
An even greater breadth and diversity of voices using our stage in exceptionally imaginative ways, playing to fuller houses. I'm looking at new programming models to be able to better support emerging artists, and that's something I'm getting my teeth stuck into now.

What are the top three things you are looking for when curating shows for Old Red Lion?
A fusion of 
Imagination 
Innovation
Provoking conversation 
(didn't mean to do a little rhyme there, but it's true)

Why do you think you’re the man for the job?
I think, to return to what I've said above, it might be because I started as a performer, then a collaborative theatre-maker, then director, creative producer, dramaturg. There are not many things in terms of making a show that I haven't tried or dipped a toe into. So once we get a meeting in the books, tell me what you want, when you want it and why you want it, and we'll try and make it happen. I'm as forthright as I can be, I hope.

Finally, what’s different about the upcoming shows that we won’t see at other theatres?
With the ORL, you can never be sure if you're sitting down to watch the new Nina Raine, the first version of something that will be as big as The Play That Goes Wrong. We've housed Exceptional Theatre since 1979, and every time you book a show at the ORL, you might be watching the first work of the defining theatre-maker of tomorrow. We're giving a platform to exceptional artists, and that's got to be worth checking out.


Katy Danbury, Artistic Director of Old Red Lion Theatre  2017 - 2019
CELEBRATING 40 YEARS OF THEATRE IN 2019

ARCHIVE INTERVIEW WITH ARTISTIC DIRECTOR KATY DANBURY

Who have been the major movers and shakers of the theatre?
The theatre was founded by Artistic Director Charlie Hanson (1979-1987), followed by Artistic Directors Ken McClymont (1987-2002), Melanie Tait (2002-2004), Helen Devine (2004-2010), Henry Fillioux-Bennett (2010-2012), Nicholas Thompson (2010-2014), Stewart Pringle (2014-2016), Clive Judd (2016-2017), and now me! Through the work of these brilliant folks the Old Red Lion has built its reputation as a hotbed for the most exciting and innovative new theatrical talent as well as presenting reincarnations of neglected works. 

And what do you consider to be some of its finest moments?
To name just a few …
The Old Red Lion won the Empty Space Peter Brook Award’s Dan Crawford Pub Theatre Award in 2006
The Old Red Lion hosted the UK premiere of "Valparaiso" by Don DeLillo, the world premiere of Nina Raine's play "Rabbit", the world premiere of Arthur Miller's "No Villain" and co- produced the original productions of "The play that goes wrong" which premiered at the Old Red Lion. 
Current owner, Damien Devine (since 2000) says: "We have been an unfunded and truly independent theatre and fiercely proud of it. We run a combined Theatre and Pub on a commercial basis. The theatre model has remained mostly unchanged and the quality and professionalism remains astonishing."

Back to today and the most recent innovations. What would be the biggest surprises to a 1980s audience?
I often have people visiting who say “I haven’t been here for 20 years!” then I show them the theatre and they gasp in shock as they claim “it looks exactly the same!”
However, after the King's Cross fire in 1987, the theatre was threatened with closure due to the tightening of fire regulations. The new artistic director at that time, Ken McClymont, raised funds to build a fire escape corridor to keep the theatre from closing. So the theatre will look slightly different to 1980’s audiences today with our unusually curved back wall (an historical document in itself – covered in quotations and autographs scrawled on by companies over the years)! If you look at our bench seating you will see all the names of all the people who donated to save the theatre, including a number of celebrities. Actors in our shows often get excited when they arrive and see that they’ve sat in ‘Gary Oldman’s seat’!

Of course you must still have loyal audiences who did frequent the pub and the theatre in the 80s who are still coming along today. How do you think attitudes have changed?
We now live in an age where people are slowly but surely learning to be more mindful when creating work and taking audiences into consideration. This is a crucial element to the revival of Crystal Clear: now it will be accessible to blind and visually impaired audiences by incorporating audio description. Many will be familiar with the slogan “nothing about us, without us.” And this is certainly true in the context of this production where we have a visually impaired actor playing the role of a blind character and the production has been fully advised by an access consultant. In 2019 it wouldn’t be right to have a production about blindness that blind people would be unable to access. I think returning audiences are grateful that we are not only still presenting quality work and nurturing new talent, but that we are taking measures within our limited means to make sure this work is fully considered. 

Anything else you’d like to comment on about ORLT’s forty years of theatre?
COME ON DOWN, SUPPORT US, CELEBRATE, DRINK AND BE MERRY!

Crystal Clear was at Old Red Lion Theatre 23rd July - 17th August 2019  

Below:  Crystal Clear programme for its transfer to Wyndham's Theatre in the West End (1983)

Archive Interview with Katy Danbury (October 2018)


Katy Danbury became Artistic Director in October 2017, taking up the baton from Clive Judd. She acknowledges that he left her an outstanding programme of work. This coming season is her first in terms of programming the shows but she’s an old hand at Old Red Lion having been Theatre Manager for several years. She is also the producer of the London Horror Festival which has found its home in this quirky venue. 

One of the things she really loves about theatre is the idea of “being in someone else’s shoes, living a new story - that’s the absolute beauty of theatre, being completely immersed”. When programming the new season, she asked herself “who am I representing?”. She wants to tell a new story from a different perspective. “I don’t want to see the same character over and over again”. Dunbury doesn’t want audiences to say “oh, that’s my life”. She wants to give them an ultimate reality, “something they never ever possibly experience in real life – or a character they would never come across in their own little bubble”.

Dunbury is passionate about supporting artists and new writing. “It’s just nice working at this level, finding the talent, giving that first opportunity on the ladder. Bringing in industry people who are seeing their work that’s one of the pros.” The cons, inevitably in fringe theatre, is having no arts funding. The pub and the theatre are part of the same business. The pub is very supportive. “It’s a nice family of people in the theatre and we’re well looked after by the pub staff.” The black box theatre space itself has a quirky, offbeat energy, which can be a challenge for some theatre makers. Danbury agrees but she herself “completely tell in love with the space”  

“it’s a very interesting space. The L shape adds an extra intimacy with lots of opportunity for set designers. I’ve been amazed by how its transformed”. However, it’s getting more expensive for companies to put on full productions with theatre rental being dictated by business rates. Danbury feels it’s a problem that urgently needs to be addressed business, “otherwise theatre will be dominated by the same rich kids, with same stories, over and over”.
It’s the reason why she brought in David Loumgair as Senior Dramaturg to help address this problem and think outside of the box.  

Whereas Old Red Lion used to have a literary department, this has now gone. The truth is that with the huge number of submissions, many theatres can no longer sustain such a costly department. Happily, Danbury has the solution to this and Old Red Lion now has several new writing nights. Companies including Broken Silence Theatre and Blink, bring extracts or short plays showcasing new writing. Danbury is always scouting for the best talent and anything that catches her eye has the opportunity of being developed further at ORLT. The Sunday and Monday theatre slots are dedicated to this work and give opportunities to test out new work on an audience.  


So, what is Danbury specifically looking for? The programming right up to next March is all about “representation across the board”. Dunbury is finding new artists but it’s also about finding new audiences and keeping the venue alive. “I don’t want just the same audiences coming through the doors. Other Artistic Directors working in the industry are focusing on bringing members of the local community into their theatre, all different walks of life. Had a meeting with a company about programming their play and they explained that a few venues had said ‘no’ because it was too niche.” Danbury feels strongly that this is not the right attitude because at the same time they are completing ostracising the very people who want that kind of theatre. “It might be niche, but these stories should be given a platform. We need to make sure we’re getting bums on seats so in doing that, we’re finding new audiences, they shouldn’t be dismissed.”

Another important part of her work is trying address the imbalance between female and male representation. Some theatres are cagey about the use of the word ‘feminism’ and prefer ‘female oriented’. Danbury says that people should be happy with the word ‘feminism’ but some people “don’t understand what it is still”. She tells a story about a company who brought in the feminist play ‘Hear Me Howl’. “The moment it went out on twitter, the company got trolls. The company responded with humour.” Danbury believes feminism isn’t just about being female centric. “It’s having characters that are not just in the background, the wife, the girlfriend, but are considered people. Every play should be feminist.” She is tired of hearing certain bigger theatres who say “oh, didn’t have any decent plays from female playwrights” as an excuse. “If they are not willing to do the legwork themselves, oh, look at Old Red Lion, check them out - I’ve kind of done the legwork for them.”

An important point that Danbury makes is that ORLT is politically agnostic. “We’re not making a political statement ourselves, we’re welcoming voices from all different backgrounds.” To this end, her seasonal show this year is ONE JEWISH BOY ONE about anti-Semitism - a lot thought has gone into the programming. Danbury says the show is “set around Hanukah – it’s laugh out loud funny, really heart- warming with flawed but loveable characters”. 

Danbury is one of those people who have a chameleon like quality about them. As well as AD and manager of Old Red Lion Theatre, she is also producer of the London Horror Festival. When it opened in 2015 it was co-produced at Etcetera Theatre. For the last three years she’s run it on her own, so how does she manage to keep going? Her worst nightmare is “unanswered emails”. It’s what keeps her awake at night rather than the horror shows which have surprised her, just “seeing how it’s grown”. It has now been extended to a month. She had enough submissions within six weeks of the call out for a six-week festival but “it’s celebrating the period of Halloween so it’s nice to keep it within that period and I don’t generally have any shows running more than three days”. 


It’s enough to say that Danbury is very proud of this and her first season of plays coming up at ORLT. What she really loves about the pub theatre circuit is that is “so very British isn’t it - it’s a wonderful institution”. She often hears people say: “No, is there a theatre up there?” The quality of work is a very high standard and it’s transformative for someone coming to the pub for football and they then “see an extraordinary piece of theatre above a pub”. It’s a great way for people to access culture. 

Katy Danbury was chatting with Heather Jeffery, Editor of London Pub Theatres



@October 2018 LONDON PUB THEATRES MAGAZINE LTD
All Rights Reserved



Archive Interview with former Artistic Director of ORLT, Clive Judd dated January 2017

“There is something really magical about theatre that’s both intensely comic and then punches you in the gut.”

Congratulations to Clive Judd who in his own words has just had a ”big moment removing ‘incoming’ from the beginning of Artistic Director”. After ten months as literary manager he is now the main man, having handed over the Literary baton to Gus Miller.   

The two of them are having a meeting when I arrive. Judd is 30, very slender with a luminous smile. As he comes over to chat to me, he’s like a beacon in this slightly darkened pub. Clive introduces Gus as the man “already making more happen than I ever did …” because there is now a monthly reading of a play found through the literary department. It’s something that Clive embraces as the search is on for the next Kathy Burke or Tim Foley. He describes the major differences between the roles as “more bins to change”. His level of administrative responsibilities along with venue management has taken a huge leap, but these are just as important as the artistic direction.  

If there is one pub theatre everyone knows its surely Old Red Lion Theatre. It opened its doors in 1979 and has seen hundreds of playwrights, actors, directors, and creatives across the board making their way from fringe theatre into west end and regional theatre. To this end, Judd is really searching for that play which could “go on our stage or go on somewhere else, to being produced by other people”. He explains: “That’s where you learn your craft. You learn a lot from talking and development but theatre is a live art, it has to be in front of a live audience.”

The Literary team are all theatre makers in their own right and they discuss everything they read in forum setting. They are particularly keen on collaborations between the director and writer. Judd and Gus Miller elaborate: “We’re not just taking a draft we’re given, but really trying to encourage a robust collaboration, to get under the skin of the play, in a way to serve the play rather than the writer, to be unafraid, not pussy footing around. We want the play and writer to make as full an expression of themselves as they can; not just draft 2 or 3 but draft 4 or 5.” However, this doesn’t mean they want it to be totally polished, Judd says “it’s punk rock space, so we’re stripping it away to get to raw heart of it.” 

Judd is brilliantly funny on his private twitter (@CliveJudd). As well as events at ORLT his personality and private life is all over it. He’s an avid footie fan. He’s an Aston Villa supporter (his nearest Premier League club when he was growing up in Worcester). Judd ruefully explains that it was a bone of contention with his family, in particular his Grandad, because he supported West Brom. Judd says: “My love for football is similar to theatre, when I see a really exciting football match and you’re in the crowd there’s nothing quite like it …. or in the audience – there’s nothing quite like it in front of an incredible play.”

He recently tweeted about Stourbridge FC’s run in the FA Cup. “Spent many cold evenings at their ground with my grandad. He'd have loved it! In Worcestershire and the Black Country Grandad was a referee’s coordinator and assessor. We’d watch football matches together - been to all of those grounds with grandad and watched some of the direst football on some of the coldest winter nights you could imagine. He was my hero.”  

Judd admits he’s Watched lots of dire theatre as well and he jokes “some people have seen my work and they probably think the same”. It is refreshing to meet someone (in my line of work) who says outright “can’t write, I’ve tried”. He’s found his forte: “All of my work is as a director of new writing and a dramaturg, but I’m an interpreter of plays rather than a writer”. There follows a discussion about the changing face of the role of the director. 

 Judd believes: “Roles are becoming less distinct. The dramaturg is helping on visuals, the movement director is not just doing scene changes but also how bodies move. Polly Bennett, for example, is a wonderful movement director who wants to be building pictures and working directly with actors in scenes, not just on transitions. The set lighting and sound designers are also dramaturgs. I work with the sound designer Giles Thomas a lot and he gives some of the best notes about acting that I’ve ever been given.” However, Judd doesn’t mean there is no single clear vision. He admires the experimental Toneelgroep Amsterdam led by Ivo Van Hove. Judd says “you can sense the collaboration that’s gone into that - clearly, it has an overarching vision, but everyone has brought their own thing”. 


Over Christmas Judd posted a photo of his Christmas tree; the most misshapen tinniest left-over specimen ever. Turns out its a living tree from his garden but he admits it’s “miserably decorated”. Nevertheless, there is something endearing about its wonkiness. Might this oddity be reflected in the kind of theatre programmed in ORLT?   
“It’s probably what drew me a little bit to the theatre, the offbeat energy. What you can discern from the pic of Christmas tree, is that there’s a sense of humour there, and the stuff I want to programme will have a sense of humour. There is something really magical about theatre that’s both intensely comic and then punches you in the gut. Its marrying the seriousness of the world with the absurdity of human situations. Draping Christmas trees in lights is one of those totally crazy rituals we have in life which are so important to us but sometimes we’re just not kind to each other, which is so much more important. I’m interested in those absurdities and interested in human beings – the contradiction of humans.”

Perhaps this is why people have such a soft spot for this strangely shaped black box theatre. Judd, himself finds his work here, “all encompassing, with only one day off a week”. Yet, he finds himself “thinking about this place so much” that it’s something that became “exciting” for him.  

Before he worked here shaping the Literary department from scratch he worked as a free-lance director and at Foyles. He says: “Sometimes people are ashamed to admit they do other jobs, but it’s important to talk about your other jobs. At Foyle’s we had amazingly talented and qualified people, medical, philosophers, musicians, artists. I ran the plays department for a year. You need to do other jobs to learn about the world you’re living in because theatre can be an echo chamber, a bubble. Also, you need it to survive.”

In the past few years the Old Red Lion Theatre has transferred work off-Broadway and four times to the West End. ORLT do co-produce and the ambition is for work that comes here, to transfer, whether regional studio theatre of comparable size or larger theatres, so that it doesn’t just come and end here. Companies who want to bring work to ORLT are asked ‘why choose this venue’? Judd pulls a wry smile. “It tends to just be, our play is small your room is small therefore it will fit – so uninspiring!! Or, it only needs 2 chairs and that’s it, so right fit for theatre!” He refers to several companies/shows that used the space well including Off West End nominated THE BENIGHTED. “The team really made an effort to make something of the space”. Judd also sees its important to programme work that attracts different audiences. “It changes from show to show and I think that’s valuable, from BENIGHTED, to BIRTHDAY SUIT to LISTENING ROOM. And I’m predicting what we’ll see here, but there’s a small core who come and see everything we do, but there’s no real trend. We have the capability of attracting all sorts - theatre makers, fans of theatre and those who’ve never been to the theatre before.”

The final question has him flummoxed for a while (it always gets them). What’s your favourite play?
“Arthur Miller” is a perennial favourite and Judd mentions him while getting some thinking time. “ANGELS IN AMERICA (Tony Kushner) – I read it again and again and find something different in it every time. It’s the first play I read at uni - I didn’t know plays could be like this. Favourite recently … THE FLICK by Annie Baker at the National last year.”  

He’s mentioned ORLT is a punk rock space more than once in the interview which means a lot of things to a lot of people. It’s an oxymoron, since punk rock never likes to have boundaries. So ORLT is a boundless space where anything can happen.  


Clive Judd was chatting with Heather Jeffery, Editor of London Pub Theatres Magazine


@January 2017 London Pub Theatres Magazine Ltd
All Rights Reserved

INTERVIEW WITH KATY DANBURY June 2019

Old Red Lion Theatre is 40 years old this year. In celebration we ask Artistic Director Katy Danbury to tell us about some of the major events which shaped its history


LPT: Forty years of pub theatre is an outstanding achievement. How can we get involved with the celebrations?
Katy Danbury: Our Summer revival, Crystal Clear, will be hosting a gala performance on Saturday 27th July with post-show drinks and celebrations. It would be wonderful to have people join us from throughout the ORL’s history! Alternatively, you can simply help celebrate by coming to see our shows and spreading the word about how great the quality of new writing and theatre-making still is in our 40th year!

Going right back to the beginning, the pub itself is quite old and some of its history is on the walls of the pub. Have you got any stories to share with us?
According to historical accounts, there has been an Old Red Lion pub on this site since 1415. The records are fascinating! Too many stories … One of my favourites: Lenin is reported to have frequented the pub and apparently once hid inside the dumb waiter to avoid the authorities! To give some context: Islington and Clerkenwell is an area which has been known for its radical left wing politics. It was not far from the Old Red Lion that such figures as Joseph Stalin and Vladimir Lenin and many other members of the Russian Communist Party would live and meet. One anecdote that is repeated in several books on Islington records that often splinter groups of the various communist associations would meet in the upstairs room of the Old Red Lion, and on occasion Lenin would tip the Landlord to allow to him to open up the doors of the “dumb waiter” to be able to hear the debates in the room above! 
The Old Red Lion has also been identified as the location where Tom Paine wrote Part 1 of “The Rights of Man” in 1791. 
If you are a keen history enthusiast then you can download the ORL’s historical research here: https://www.oldredliontheatre.co.uk/history.html
We are also have a production (yet to be announced!) currently in the process of being devised based on the history and, more specifically, the ghosts of the Old Red Lion! As part of this play’s research we will soon be undertaking an overnight ghost hunt with an expert paranormal team and having a sleepover in the theatre! If I suddenly disappear from the Old Red Lion … you’ll know why! Eeeek!

How long have you been involved with OLD RED LION THEATRE?
I first got involved with the Old Red Lion when I brought the London Horror Festival here in 2016. I still produce the London Horror Festival alongside the Old Red Lion and this year it will be taking place across both the ORL and the Pleasance. It’s very exciting to see how the festival has grown over the years and the ORL has always been a suitably spooky home for it. One year we actually heard ghostly noises during a LHF 2017 ghost story show! (I thought it was the company’s brilliant sound effects, but it turns out the theatre ghost was making mischief! I think they were just jealous the company had cast living beings in the ghost roles … Safe to say the company were spooked and they still occasionally recount the tale on social media when promoting their ongoing tour.)
I officially joined the Old Red Lion Team in 2017 and have programmed productions and managed the theatre’s day-to-day operations ever since. 

What do you consider to be the major changes and events during your relationship with the theatre?
Encouraging all of our main productions to have at least one relaxed or accessible performance during their run. It’s tricky being located on the first floor of an old historical listed building where physical access is denied. We are trying to compensate for this as much as we can by encouraging our companies to think outside the box when it comes to engaging members of the community who can often feel excluded from theatre. I have also recently created an audio guide alongside a visual guide for the website, so people can familiarise themselves with the venue and feel more comfortable coming to us before their visit. 

Going back to the inaugural productions in 1979, what do you think the experience of coming to the theatre here might have been at that time?
Funnily enough, we have some hilarious press reactions to the venue from the original run of Crystal Clear in 1982, so I imagine it might have been a similar experience to this: 
“Off went an advance party of critics last December to a shabby, humid, uncomfortable room above the saloon-bar of the Islington pub which passed by the inappropriately rustic name of the Old Red Lion. They emerged as if from eight rounds in the ring with the Brontes. ''Undoubtedly the most moving play in London,'' declared James Fenton of The Sunday Times, ''and one of the most intelligent.''”
Discovering this description certainly made us howl with laughter! At least they enjoyed the play, which shows that quality work can shine anywhere!
The same New York Times article goes on to say:
“Not everyone was sure the play would transfer successfully from the intimacy and claustrophobia of its pub-room to the open spaces of Wyndhams; but, in the event, campaign-hardened critics were proclaiming themselves touched in usually invulnerable parts of their anatomy. Michael Billington of The Guardian declared his heart torn out ''in anguished sympathy''; John Barber of the Telegraph found the ending ''so passionate and so involving, it caught me by the throat''; and Michael Coveney, commenting on its ''stomachchurning impact,'' pronounced ''Children of a Lesser God'' no more than a ''fine soap opera'' beside it.”
Safe to say, it’s a great play, and I am thrilled to welcome it back to the gentle intimacy of the ORL stage. 

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